Dear Team,
Can you suggest how to improve crumb whiteness for egg based whiteforest cakes.I have observed an improvement in crumb whiteness while using excess of leavening acids and egg whites only in the recipe instead of using whole eggs.Still I need to make my product further white,because using egg whites only is not practically feasible.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
To make white cakes whiter
1.use a bleached cake flour in cake making
2.mix the cake properly to aerate the cake batter.
3.You slightly acidify the batter by adding little bit if cream of tartar. On top of your baking powder.
4.use a cake emulsifiers to aerate the batter uniformly resulting in uniforms crumb structure.
5.use egg whites only.no egg yolk in the cake recipe.
Keep in mind white cakes are made with egg whites only, as yolks even in small amounts
can create a dirty white to creamy shade in the cake crumb
Now as there is less in the absence of yolks you had to add lecithin to the recipe to compensate it.
Yes , excess leavening acid can bring down the batter pH resulting in whiter cake but too much of excess will create a sour to astringent off taste,
Thanks for your suggestions.
Will try out the options.
I tried using emulsifiers and bringing down the specific gravity of batter,which resulted in light,fluffy white batter but their is a significant rise in cake volume & a sponge texture with open crumb cells.When the cake texture is open it looks less white,a dense and closed texture gives a better whiteness.
If thats the case , would you mind showing us the recipe and procedure to see if there is a way more improvement can be done?
Recipe
Whiteforest premix - 1 kg
Egg - 600g
Water - 170g
Veg Oil - 100g
Method of preparation
Premix+water+egg mix for 5 minutes using whisk,then add oil & mix for another 1 min.
Baking temp - 170C
Please ,show us the ingredients declaration/ ingredients list of the white forest premix as listed in the package as the composition will provide us with technical details of its designed performance.
Where its made…?
As the cake is made from a premix, its hard to tell what needs to be modified.
Using whole eggs will result in creamy yellow cake, Maybe it was not designed to produce a really white cake like the angel food cake and American white layer and pound cakes,?
If you can show us more information as what I requested in my recent answer to your post will help clarify matters…
What is the batter specific gravity with and without added emulsifiers…?
You can use BPO which is a bleaching agent. Also phospholipase gives very good emulsification, improved whiteness and reduction in egg qty in recipe. You can try DSM’s Cakezyme Smart or Cakezyme Majestic.
@rkdubeycfri…
Please ,don’t promote materials to users, unless you exactly knew the problem on hand…Until the OP clarify his position about the true nature of his cake mixes : is the time we can properly post solution instead of complicating it further. FYI
I am familiar with those materials you mentioned but its not a panacea to cake making issues.
I’m developing the premix too,so I can even modify the formulation to attain whiteness.
Ingredients List
Sugar,Flour,Maize starch,sunflower oil,Raising Agents (Sodium bicarbonate,SAPP,MCP), Emulsifiers (475,471,433),Salt,Stabilisers (415,412).
Specific gravity of batter without cake gel addition - 0.83
Specific gravity of batter with cake gel addition - 0.55
Ohh, who is promoting any ingredients? Who is making it more complicated? You please read your all comments and then you tell me who is making it more complicated. The ingredients I have recommended would work on specific flour components irrespective of ratios of ingredients in cake mix/recipes.
Secondly, cake is NOT made only by premixes, it is also made by scratch recipes which is entirely different from bakery to bakery or person to person. Do you think premix manufacturers would list all actual ingredients on the label?
Finally you are NO-ONE to restrict the comments from anyone.
Your suggestions are well noted.
I have tried using phopholipase at 10 ppm and 15 ppm but couldnt find any improvement.
Let me check with further higher dosage.
If you know any particular doasage that gives good result pls share.
@Jeeduj
Its just basic cake premix that you got there with emulsifiers and gums to stabilize it.
I am familiar with black forest but not with white forest so …
I have asked a cake baker friend and he told me white forest cake are not white but just made ftom basic cake recipe .its more near to the American butter vanilla cake… Therefore expect it the crumb to be yellowish. From this information, plus the make up recipe of the cake which typical for shortened cakes The provided batter gravity is satisfactory,
The one with cake gel due to lower gravity will certainly have opened crumb.
You can improve if y,ou appreciate the cake with added emulsifiers but reduce the cake gel by half so you will have a gravity in between what you got from two levels ( as is and with cake gel).
I don’t see the point of using egg whites if the cake premix is not designed to produce white cakes.
I think you might have tried Glycolipase, plz tell me which lipase have you tried. Also all enzymes are okay at lower dosage if processing time is long. But in cake application the processing time is less as compared to yeast leavened products. Therefore you need to add enzymes at way higher dosage. start a combination of Phospholipase, lecithin and maltogenic amylase.
A true professional bskery troubleshooter won’t recommend materials if he is not totally familiar with the root cause of the problem…
But an ingredient salesman.will just promote anything just to get sales
I think you belong to the latter…
I do not you about your profession, but i know about mine OKAY. I am not a baker or a sales person but a qualified Food Technologist from one of the prestigious institute in the filed with little knowledge. I don’t speak in air.
Someone may be agree or disagree with my comments. Its not possible to keep everyone happy. Better we stop here if you are not okay with my comments.
Certainly you can make white cakes , but the general rule in white cakes, starts with good quality bleached cake flour…BTW as suggested by one poster Bpo or benzoyl peroxide is added at the mill never by the baker so its an impractical solution…
You need to use egg whites no whole eggs, just like in the angel food cakes
For fat containing cakes, using a good white vegetable shortening with emulsifiers following the high ratio white cake formulation, you can get a
White cake crumb with very fine grain.
There are recipes for white cake mixes r you can glean from the web…
BPO is an ingredient and can be added by RFM or by an organization who is producing premixes. There is no any barrier that only mills can use BPO or flour correctors. I know many premix manufacturers who add BPO and or do chlorination for their own consumption. The only obstacle would be for the premix manufacturers is that they will have to hold the flour for at least 24-48 hrs after mixing BPO.
See everything can be done by everyone, its all about business volume and commercial viability.
BPO and chlorine dioxide are applied with specialized equipment to flour in quantity that a cake baker can only dream of.
The dose is in parts per million,it requires training in applying such material in flour.
Not just anybody is licensed to do that…Are you ever aware of food SAFETY that you cam just recommend to anyone to apply those toxic materials in their products…
I am well aware of Food Safety and regulatory affairs. I have never said anything about dosage. By the way all ingredients are hazardous beyond certain limit.
Please read my last line of last comment: See everything can be done by everyone, its all about business volume and commercial viability.
You, read, understand and then make any comments.
Please don’t be too exuberant to recommend material that are not necessary and can even be done by the user. IT can be dangerous.
The OP is not having plans to establish his own mix plant.
He only want practical suggestions how to improve his cake.
It seems you just learned about those ingredients you uttered without even thinking that its not simple to use aside from the fact those enzymes are expensive. .if you are not accurate in dosing enzymes it can be more detrimental than.beneficial to the end product.
Bakers care about costs ,as long as possible that will not spend a rupee nor are willing to try new materials if the existing ones that they have can be made to work to sort out the issues.
Thats why prudence is the rule in troubleshooting.
It similar to fire control …
If you are trained in fire prevention and control , During an event of fire or conflagration; you just don’t throw all those things that you know can put out fire,; you first have to know the kind of fire it is and what material can effectively put it out properly.
It the same thing with troubleshooting and problem solving
Exuberance is a dangerous thing …keep that in.mind.
All these ingredients are meant to be used that is why there are well explored. If someone is not trained about dosing and handling the he needs to be trained to get hands on. But no one can say that do not use this and that just because you do not know how to handle it.
You always underestimate things, that’s y our problem implying you are neophyte in these matters… I just hope that in the future you learn that things don’t happen as you expect it from people,
I have been catering commercial milling and baking industries to almost 19 countries since last 9yrs with not even a single failure of trials by the grace of God. I do not speak without ground. You should learn to deliver well calculated and an effective solution in less time rather than reading product labels.
Bye Good luck
LOL…you cater to millers and similar enterprises and you followed the same rule to solving problems to individual bakers which is different… That’s the very reason you just pushed through many items that would be of an information overload to the concerned party,
In my more than 4 decades in the food processing industry there is not one rule fits all.
Every problem needs to be tackled individually,You are act like an academic lecturing peers in the classroom knowing they can easily understand what you are talking about,.and expecting they will follow your word to the letter, You are still living in an ivory tower…
BTW, you did not deliver calculated solution but offered a deluge of ideas that can be overwhelming to non technical people,
An effective solution is not found by pushing for a deluge of recommendation even before you know more details of the issue,
You are not doing problem solving but flooding with ideas hoping one will hit the mark luckily…Is that your way of effective problem solving…?Is that what the CFRI taught you?
I do not think that you have clarity over words, better you clarify yourself before writing comments. Which sentence and/or words from my comment is “hitting the mark luckily”? Rather you are employing “hit and trial method”. My recommendations are clear and well targeted considering all proximate parameters of flour and required rheological profiles for a good quality cake.
And you do not qualify to speak over CFTRI, it is out of your imaginary reach.
responding to you is wasting my time for nothing.
The point I realize is you are literal in your understanding of things… You indeed a provided a deluge of enzyme suggestion, Hoping that one of them will luckily hit the mark even before knowing the real problem of the OP.As I noticed when I proposed solution based on scant information was not sufficient so I asked the OP to provide more details but you just jumped in and recommended a deluge of enzymes , There is nothing clear in providing a deluge of enzymes to solve a simple problem which actually is not as it was the nature of the product itself that the OP was not aware off,
You are indeed wasting your time trying to argue over my suggestion that we have to wait for the OP to provide more details so we can suggest the better solution…
White cake is not a function of flour only, but you focused on flour when the fact is there are other ingredients that can influence it, hence the verities of ideas I suggested initially
Even if you use a bleached low ash cake flour if your other ingredients are colored then you will never solve the problem.
That is my point that I want to look at the problem from all angles as the solution is not simple as suggesting at once a group of ingredients that will only act on one material: flour.
BTW. you are proud of CFRI which is a respected institution , IF I were you I will remove that
from your alias as that will drag the reputation to your inanity,
Firstly let me thank both of your for sharing your ideas.
May be all the ideas won’t be workable as it has internal or external limitations like adding a new raw material to the inventory or opting for an extra processing.But if it is the only way available to achieve my target I should have to try for those.
I accept all your suggestions wholeheartedly.
Among them I could try out the possible trials with available resources at first stage and if re sults are not satisfactory I could try out the other ones too.Because I know that to make it super white is quite a challenging task,so for that I need to try out of the box ideas.
From the trials so far I have understood that a single approach/ingredient won’t give a desired result so for that I need to look on every aspects right from selecting the raw materials to final recipe & method of preparation because even if all your ingredients in premix contributes whiteness the eggs used in recipe can turn it yellowish or while frosting,the sugar syrup added to wet the sponge will make the crumb looks yellowish.
So I welcome all your ideas which can eventually make the crumb super white.As said,a journey of thousand miles begins with a single step.
You can shoot your ideas right from selecting raw materials,modifying formulation,recipe & method of preparation.I will try out all the possible solutions & let you know the results.
@Jeeduj I am pleased to know that you realize your problem is not simple… white forest cake is the opposite of black forest cake where the color does not actually pure white in the former nor black in the latter.Its just an indication of lightness and darkness of the base cake appearance.
Therefore you are “shooting for the stars” if you are striving for pure white cake using a white forest cake mixes just to justify yoir literal interpretation of the meaning of white forest.Both "white forest and black forest " terminology clearly indicates the base cake appearance and should not be taken literally as pure white or pure black respectively. .
If your goal is a pure white cake then you should opt for the angel food cake and white layer cake,white high ratio cake which exactly fits your requirements. for exactly white colored cake base.
I have already related to you the means to achieve it.
It’s a waste of time and technically wrong trying to achieve your target if you don’t want to change your erroneous mindset about white forest cake .
You can check the web or read a bakery recipes book and you will realize and understand what I truly mean.
I fully agree with you Jeeduj, you need to do multiple trials. And also, none of the problems are without solution. There is solution for every existing challenge, we need just to work in well targeted direction. Enzymes are one of the emerging solutions to a versatile range of challenges existing in recent market. Need to give them a try. Good luck
I think you keep waiting for the information available from product labels, processing parameters, sugar sources, salt sources, water pH bla bla, keep waiting…
Yes, white cake or any cake is not made just from flour, it requires many functional ingredients, enzymes are also natural functional ingredients. It seems you have limited knowledge base on enzymes that is why you are becoming more personal on this topic.
I can see your frustration: BTW. you are proud of CFRI which is a respected institution , IF I were you I will remove that
from your alias as that will drag the reputation to your inanity,
Mind it, with this negative mindset you would never get that chance.
BTW I know your past with a reputed organization, Plz limit here.
I am open to have 1-1 discussion on logical technical background.
@rkdubeycftri…
Frankly
I am ahead of you by decades and have used enzymes even before your existence is still an idea in your parent mind.
FYI.
Most my (nearing ) 50 years of work experience is in R& D work.
I had used a wide variety of enzymes including those you mentioned and those that you are not familiar with.
Look, the discussion does not provide fruitful information that can benefit the OP…but if you insist in “sparring with me” and drag the reputation of your school by your pettiness, then bring it on…
But before that ask permission from the administration of this group if your warmongering attitude (unbecoming of a food technologist ) is permissible…
See, I respect you, your age and your tenure (50yrs in the field), but I may/may not respect the way you approach to any challenge. your years of experience is just a number but you are not matured enough to be the part of any professional column.
If you have any thing personal with me, my suggestions or even with your previous organization where you had worked with then make it clear.
So far I restricted myself not to go personal, but me too have a boundary to my emotions; How can you go to the level of my parents? This kind of comments reflects that you are not a professional but just an ill minded sick person and I guess this was probably the reason of your dismissal from your previous job.
Let me ask you a question; did you had any plan about the future/career/profession of your kids while dreaming/planning for them?
Responding to you is just my foolishness.
You are indeed very literal person. …Just don’t make sense how you become a food science professional with such narrow minded personality …
What i am talking about a figure of speech where I have experience than you but it literally true also…
You are just a kid in comparison.
Now as our conversation is becoming personal and not helping anyone I don’t see its proper to perpetuate and look bad to the administration of these group…But just let you know inspiteof technical experience and education
FYI, at my matured age I never avoid a fight not cower at anyone,either a streetlight, or an argument…my colleagues and those that know me respect me as I amply prepared in both…
Okay kid ,please broaden your perspective and don’t be onion skinned…Get a life…
BTW, in all my nearly 5 decades of work, I never experienced being fired… But I fired a lot of people instead…